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Have you heard of the new 40.7% improved solar cells?

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=643C...

People are working on solutions to our energy problems every day. Some solutions will take time. Others will take breakthroughs.

Maybe the money wasted trying to prove the man caused global warming junk science theory, was spent on research trying find better energy solutions, we could make better progress.

I mean, if we all agree that we need to get off oil, and most of us do. Then wasting money on carbon credits that produce no solutions won't get us there any quicker. Money needs to be spent on research. Not BS.

The main reason I'm partial to electric cars is because the electric motor has one moving part. One. Virtually maintenance-free, relatively inexpensive to replace (after, say, 250,000 to 500,000 miles or more), and it runs on juice you can get from an outlet or solar panels on your roof.

My ideal hookup would be to have solar panels for sunny days and a biodiesel generator to make electricity on cloudy days or at night.

This sounds like a great option, certainly better than ethanol. What we need are some wealthy private investors to build a few switchgrass processing plants to prove just how viable this really is as a clean fuel source.

Tesla Motors is planning an all-electric sports sedan that will still be pricey (around $46,000 give or take), but the capital they generate from sales of this model will go toward something more affordable (in the $20,000 range?) that at least some of us can afford. Hopefully as the price of lithium-ion batteries comes down, more automakers will get on board.

Here's another somewhat more affordable option for plug-in electrics:

www.zapworld.com

Maybe the beauty behind it would be that local state farming would benefit instead of just the corporate farming in Iowa.

Seems to me that this article couldn't be better written if the Oil Execs had written it themselves....maybe they did.

Propane is only a liquid after it is compressed, which takes energy.

We have to get away from the idea of making do with this technology and the processes and come up with something new. Once upon a time America was the home of invention. Are we afraid to take on this challenge?

Gas trucks and SUV's will still have their place, but if everyone converted their 4 and 2 pax cars to electric. The savings for everyone would be phenominal, not to mention Mother Nature.

Ethanol is BAD, add that to the MTBE that they add to the gas around here and I get 3 Miles to the Gallon Less.

Lets add that up, the Government get tax off every gallon, they cause the gas to be less productive, so they get more taxes. These guys ain't dumb after all. Vote them all out of office!!

The EPA basically rates them as 125 mpg. But they us no oil. period. Not just some like a plug-in Hybrid.

In my area it would cost 2 cents per mile to run, at 3.29 a gal for gas and .0764 cents per KWh, compared to 15 cents for my truck and 12 cents for my wifes car. And it can be charged off Solar Power. So effective cost could be 0 cents per mile.

But when you look at the price of it's competitors (Porsche, Lamborgini, etc.) at their 65 cents per mile and equal sales price, the savings are huge.

I give them 5 years and they'll have enough money to have their own plants and be making 4 pax cars. And if Moore's Law works for batteries, in that time it'll be 500 miles per full charge on a Li-Ion battery or other battery type.

And the good looks of the car make it even more attractive.

There is nothing as cheap as oil as a transportable fuel and that is why it is king.

Rather than getting the government involved (we know where this would end up) make the big oil companies give cosumers "gas credits" based on their purchases and then allow the consumers to use these credits to buy stock and invest in a select group of corporations specializing in the reasearch and delvelopement of alternative fuels.

That gives the cosumer the opportunity to make an informed choice while at the same time helping the economy and hopefully if they chose wisely would also contribute to their future retirement based on the profit from their investment.

Does this make sense?

In God We Trust

Tell the auto companies to make an attractive, high MPG car with cargo space and towing capacity...it'd probably be easier to do after you create world peace and perfect cold fusion...

Using corn for ethanol is just not the greatest idea, particulrly when it can be produced from other sources including cellulosic biomasses without impacting our food supplies.

But a much better bet is biodiesel from algae. Consider, some blue-green algae strains are 50% oil by weight, and the stuff grows rapidly in polluted water. What remains after the oil is extracted is high in protein and a great livestock feed. Algae could be producing huge volumes of biodiesel while cleaning polluted water and feeding livestock. But Archer Daniels Midland doesn't grow algae.

Oil prices have NOT risen in the last 40 years - the dollar has just inflated. Within 5 years, world oil production will fall below world demand, and then oil prices WILL rise. Triple the 1960 real price of 3/10ths of an ounce of silver gives a price of...wait for it... $11.70 PER GALLON.

For instance, If I am farming a lot of corn, which I sell to the local ethanol plant, which sells all of its product for local vehicles, the distillers grain wet to the hog operation down the road, which produces methane from the manure, which it sells to the ethanol plant for fuel, and the processed manure from the mathane tanks to me for fertilizer - then my friends, we have a big winner, ecologically and economically.

http://www.1031energy.com/taxBenefits.php

http://www.encapgroup.com/taxbenefits/

http://www.saveourenvironment.org/FriendsOfEart...

https://www.foe.org/new/releases/november/taxbr...

There's more. You can do the google yourself.

Cons to the CNG-well I can only hold 6 gallons at a time so I have to refuel everyday because I only get 35 to the gallon and there's not a fueling station where I comute to. That really isn't a problem for me because I live near the fueling station. Alternatives are that you can buy a little fuel maker and compress the gas in your own garage at home using the same Natural Gas that feeds your furnace or hot water heater.

Remember, ethanol is only one part of the equation to reduce our dependancy on oil and to improve our air quality. Other fuels may fit into the equation and improvements in vehicles and public transportation fit as well.

I bought my wife a flex fuel van in 2000 and we couldn't even get ethanol until just this past year. The fuel efficiancy is 15% less than when we run it on regular and the cost is 15% less. It's a wash but we aren't contributing to the mid east problems.

I bought a Compressed Natural Gas (CNG)/bi-fuel (runs on regular as well) '98 Contour for myself to comute in because I drive 110 miles a day. I put 120,000 miles on it in 3 years and just bought a 2003 CNG/Bi-Fuel Cavalier to replace it. I get the same milage and get this I pay $1.04 a gallon, there's an alternative for you...

Gee, I wonder what an ethanol spill would do to the environment?

Politicians would sell their own families for votes.

Basically, they say that the study found differences of 4% and 9% more deaths but the study is projected out to 2020 and the variability in projections is greater than the differences found. Also, there is nothing to account for technology changes that might happen by 2020. Of course, that is tough to project, but it should not be discounted either. And the input this study uses to base its projections on is questionable as well.

Ethanol is a hydrocarbon with a hydroxy group and gasoline is just hydrocarbons. Burning ethanol is pretty much the same as burning gasoline as far as the combustion products are concerned. The only reason ethanol is called green is because the hydroxy can pick up one hydrogen without any air required. This barely makes it 'green'.

"In a 10-year experiment reported in Science magazine in December, we explored how much bioenergy could be produced by 18 different native prairie plant species grown on highly degraded and infertile soil. We planted 172 plots in central Minnesota with various combinations of these species, randomly chosen. We found, on this highly degraded land, that the plots planted with mixtures of many native prairie perennial species yielded 238 percent more bioenergy than those planted with single species. High plant diversity led to high productivity, and little fertilizer or chemical weed or pest killer was required.

The prairie "hay" harvested from these plots can be used to create high-value energy sources...it can be mixed with coal and burned for electricity..."gasified," then chemically combined to make ethanol or synthetic gasoline...burned in a turbine engine to make electricity."

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-b...

Just because corn and soy based ethanol is not the answer does not mean we should throw up our hands and dismiss all biofuel.

We will have to look outside the business establishment for new options. The established businesses have too much invested in the status quo and won't change until there is a real economic threat...a viable competitor.

Quote from their article follows...

If you build an engine to run just on propane, (not just convert a gasoline engine) propane is equal to 125 octane. And will burn 97 percent clean.

It also makes more sense than cars running on compressed natural gas. As propane is a liquid and requires lower pressure to store and operate. A 50 gallon propane tank will take you roughly twice as far as a similar size tank of compressed natural gas.

No, no, no, globalwarmer, I was talking about plug-in HYBRID electric vehicles, my friend. These guys (www.calcars.org) modified a Prius hybrid in 2004 so you can plug it in and get 125 miles per gallon. What you do is, you drive the first 40-60 miles each day on electricity alone (from plugging in at night), THEN you switch to gas.

It's the best of both worlds: if you travel less than 40-60 miles each day for your commute, you don't burn any gas. If you go over that, you only burn what gas you need to beyond the batteries' range of 40-60 miles, which means you'll never get stuck on the roadside.

There are many organizations that are trying to get automakers to produce plug-in electric hybrid vehicles (PHEVs) now because they're a great solution to an urgent need. But people NEED TO ASK DEALERSHIPS FOR THEM!

There are Lithium-ion all-electric cars out there (not that I can afford yet, but still...) that can go 250 miles on a charge.

Anyway, there's some guys in Philly (last I heard) that were doing process research on a high temp/high pressure process for converting organic scrap materials (chicken/beef intestines, from slaughterhouses, plant material etc.) into an oil product almost like fuel oil with methane as a byproduct that can be recycled to run the process. If there's a product/process worth dumping public money into, that's probably it. They can probably make it on their own, though, from what little I've heard. Check it out if you're interested.

Secondly, ANWAR has about five years worth of oil if we used it for all of our consumption and it will take ten years to bring it on-line.

It just doesn't make sense.

Plug-in electric hybrids are a better fit right now, since a number of automakers that have already produced hybrids have the ability to make them right now (if people ASK FOR THEM), and the owner isn't limited by the short range associated with most affordable, full-electric cars out there.

Part 2 to this response is solar panels: they're more affordable and more efficient now, and a number of full-EV owners collect enough energy to 'fuel' their cars AND sell some juice back to the utility company.

Love positive discussions. Wish the neg and pos ratings were not even there. It serves very little purpose, except to cause hurtful vendictive feelings among the members. I will not even get into the sink feature.

Gas is priced at the pumps by a mechanism that isn't found in a normal economy. Retailers price by perceived demand. Though there is the claim that they do not make much money at the pumps, when the price jumps overnight $.40, they are making the $.40 plus their normal markup per gallon. There is also the claim that the retailer makes their income on store sales, but this doesn't make sense when economic rules are applied to the scenario, since dropping their price compared to a competitor would naturally result in more traffic, thus increasing store traffic. Either the gas sales generate income, retailers are colluding, or wholesalers are dictating the retail price at any given moment and not based on the wholesale product price.

McCain's farm flip

The senator has been a critic of ethanol. That doesn't play in Iowa. So the Straight Talk Express has taken a detour.

Over the years, the Arizona senator has made a habit of ripping ethanol subsidies as corporate pork for agribusinesses like Archer Daniels Midland

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_...

The U.S. has a large supply of oil reserves. It's time for liberals to stop interfering with domestic oil production, which is the most pragmatic way to reduce our dependency on foreign oil.

You don't need to buy one made especially for propane, cheap (economical) retrofits are available.

They call it LPG here, and it's not 100% propane.

It seems like there are electric car companies popping up all over the place. I'd like at least 150 miles per charge for around $15,000. They're not there yet, but they could be if demand and technology both improve.

Check this out: www.pluginamerica.com

Some people have converted their Prius cars so they can plug them in. The result? The equivalent of 125 miles per gallon (they can drive 40-60 miles on electricity alone).

From what I've read, getting plug-in hybrids is a matter of DEMANDING them from dealerships. Get the address or phone number to your local car dealer and say, "Hey, buddy! I'm sick of payin' $3.55 a gallon for gas! When are you gonna make a plug-in hybrid so I can do my errands without burning gas? And don't tell me you need 15 years to develop it; these guys in California are doing it RIGHT NOW!" (www.calcars.com)

It's sad that so many people don't have any money left after filling the tank these days. Hmm, do I eat or do I drive to work...

But these people wouldn't even drive on the soft shoulder to get around a turning car, let alone have some brush rub against their paint.

Then they drive from the wild suburb on the highway to their urban jobs.

But if you told them they don't need it....

http://hempcar.org/diesel.shtml

- Ethanol is a pie-in-the-sky fantasy that lunkhead politicians are flocking to in order to win votes. For the reasons cited in the article, it ain't the 'solution'.

- Hydrogen is a pie-in-the-sky fantasy that's too damn expensive, unproven, with no infrastructure to support it. This white rabbit has also stolen money away from plug-in electric hybrid development, which many say IS the 'solution', at least until full-electrics get better and come down in price.

- Bio-diesel is pretty slick. It burns clean, and if you're a serious green hippie (I love you all) you can power your VW bus or Volvo around on used cooking oil from your favorite Chinese place. For FREE.

Then there's the impending electrical revolution...

http://www.420zone.com/html/420_jackh.html

http://hempcar.org/ford.shtml

http://mojo.calyx.net/~olsen/HEMP/newhempr.html

You'd think that by now the ethonal myth would have run its coarse but as long as a polotician can ride that wave, logic will have to wait.

In order for the US to get off of the oil addiction we have to quit prolonging the process. More drilling and more discoveries of oil will make that harder not easier.

So, what we need to do is quit spending all that cash on finding and exploiting oil fields and spend it on finding a way to get off of oil completely.

A couple of old farmers are sitting on the backs of a couple of really huge hogs, and there are chickens out in front of them. One of them looks at the other, "I heard them fellers saying riding hogs and chasing chicks was fun, but this ain't much fun. In fact it stinks!"

Most of the Nebraskans I met were good hard working people. My uncles used to raise corn and hay.

Seriously, we should be finding ways to kick the oil habit, if for no other reason than the unreliabilty of its sources. And, as mentioned below, alternative fuel development could be a huge shot in the arm for the economy

It's good for Iowa perhaps but perhaps not for the rest of the nation. My old Chevy Pickup gets almost 30 miles to the gallon, has 2-60 air conditioning, and armstrong steering. It doesn't have any of the polution devices we absolutely have to have, yet it tests better than new ones. It has 2-60 air conditioning because when you want air conditioning you roll down two windows and drive 60. Armstrong steering...no power steering. You only need strong arms when you're stopped. Other than that you don't notice the difference. Its a 1952 chevy 1/2 ton 6, best engine I think chevy ever made...ruggged and solid as a rock!

Great story. Thanks!

Thanks also to Bkumm and others for the input. This is a very positive discussion. Note: not a single neg. as of yet.

The cost of solar power will come down when millions are forced to turn to it by the rising cost of oil, and the technology will grow by leaps and bounds (they already have a solar-powered auto race across the whole of Australia's outback).

As you said, propane is a "quick fix", and frankly I'd put ethanol in the same category. And all we do by adopting any "quick fix" is pass on our problems to future generations.

As we develop a strategy for change, it is absolutely imperative that we insure that change be sustainable.

Really, all that idea was was a political lightning rod.

Switchgrass is higher in sugars needed for effective and efficent ethanol production, it is a perennial, grows almost anywhere in varying conditions, needs very little care, and you can easily get more than one harvest per year. It is a plant and forget crop that returns about 5 times the energy used to produce it. It is also much more effective at removing CO2 from the atmosphere. It is already being used for crop rotation to return nutrients back to the soil after crops, like corn, have depleted nutrients.

Libs will never accept wind power in the US.

Solar would be acceptable to most Libs but the panels are terribly inefficient, cost an arm and a leg and are limited to fixed locations (not cars).

One quick fix is propane. As an auto fuel it costs $1.25/gallon and burns so clean even the Goremeister would have trouble objecting. It is delivered by pipeline rather than truck and has been around for 40 years (although most have never heard of propane powered cars). And we could be up an running on propane in less than 1 year. Honda makes a propane car they sell in Calif.

Sugar can be produced in warm states from cane and in the midwest and west from sugar beets. But this doesn't buy Ms Slick any votes in Iowa, does it?

We're getting our asses kicked in wind-generated power, too. Right now Denmark generates about 20% of all its electricty from wind, and we're behind both Spain and Germany (again) in installed capacity.

By most accounts the leading producers of ethanol are the US and Brazil, who together account for about 70% of the world's total ethanol production.

So why aren't wind & solar getting the same traction as ethanol here in the US?

It could be as simple as giving our farmers something to do. After all, they can't plant and harvest sunshine and wind, and the government has been subsidising financially struggling farms for years. Ethanol is a great way to get hundreds of farmers off the federal dole, & it gives them something to grow.

Thank you, by the way.

"It's no mystery that people who want to be president support the corn ethanol program," Taylor says. "If you're not willing to sacrifice children to the corn god, you will not get out of the Iowa primary with more than one percent of the vote, Right now the closest thing we have to a state religion in the United States isn't Christianity. It's corn."

And it's good for vote-hungry presidential hopefuls. Iowa is a key state in the presidential-nomination sweepstakes, and we all know what they grow in Iowa [http://www.iowacorn.org/]. Sen. Clinton voted against ethanol 17 times until she started running for president. Coincidence?

I dont agree with you on everything, but in this we are in total agreement.

2. Come up with a solution (my personal choice is hydrogen, but there are some issues with that) to using the internal combustion engine run on fossil fuels. Figure it out. Do it now. Feed every university in the country several billion dollars and figure it out. Build a government agency that does nothing but look at new and more innovative ways to produce energy that reduce greenhouse emissions and improve efficiency. We put a man on the Moon from a virtual dead start in less than nine years. We can sure as hell figure out a way to do this.

3. Understand the the economic and security issue implications are enormous. If we get off of oil, we stop funding both sides of the war on terror. We can sell our innovations to the rest of the world, possibly restoring our trade imbalance with countries like China and India. The process of converting ourselves to new energy will take 50 years and provide millions of high paying jobs.

But, it won't be easy.

Corn production and ethanol production are up sharply here in Nebraska and while that is good for my family it doesn't address the problem that ethanol is supposed to solve. That is, getting America off of oil. The solution to this problem in my opinion is actually threefold. But, it's going to hurt and the voters don't like that.

1. Reduce consumption of oil. This is an 'easy' fix. Raise the MPG requirements. STOP selling SUV's and light trucks to every Tom, Dick, Harry and Jane. Last year, according to ABC Americans bought more SUV's and light trucks than in any previous year. It's INSANE. Improve public transportation. Build more wind farms. Stop making incandescent light bulbs. Mandate more efficient appliances and homes. Reduce, reduce, reduce.

cont:

((And it's good for vote-hungry presidential hopefuls. Iowa is a key state in the presidential-nomination sweepstakes, and we all know what they grow in Iowa. Sen. Clinton voted against ethanol 17 times until she started running for president. Coincidence?))

Of course it is! ;-)